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  1. Bienvenido Invitado! para poder interactuar con la comunidad y tener acceso a todas las características de la web.

Cambios que necesita mapeadores / Suggestions and changes that mapeadores need

Tema en 'Ideas y Sugerencias' iniciado por Astornauta, 9 Dic 2016.

    Trabugista Novato

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    [ES] Con los argumentos ya planteados anteriormente quiero hacer referencia al de "Eliminar el daño por caida".

    Personalmente estoy de acuerdo en eliminar el daño por caida para todo el mundo por los argumentos ya dichos anteriormente pero, desde mi punto de vista, a mi me gusta jugar los mapas tal y como el mapper ha querido desde el primer momento de su creación (como alguno sabrá juego sin ventajas) y si esa medida se implementa, me gustaría que existiera una opción para desactivarla para que a la gente que le va jugar más "hardcore" no se vea afectada por estos cambios.

    También quiero decir que eliminar el daño por caída desmotivaría, de cierta manera, a conseguir el VIP para la gente nueva por lo que sería necesario otorgarle otro tipo de ventaja o beneficio (Ej: Skin de VIP + 20 mas de Hp + poder cambiar a tags especiales del servidor).

    Finalmente quiero añadir que el argumento de Unorth: "A lot of people are still in school or university meaning they will naturally be focusing on end of December or early January exams", me esta afectando personamente y quiero pedir disculpas por no jugar recientemente :I


    [EN] With the arguments already raised above I want to refer to the "Delete fall dmg".

    Personally I agree to delete the fall damage for everyone by the arguments already mentioned but, from my point of view, I like to play maps as the mapper has wanted from the first moment of its creation (As some will know i like to play the game without advantages) and if that measure is implemented, I would like to have an option to disable it so that people who will play "hardcore" are not affected by these changes.

    I also want to say that eliminating the fall damage would discourage, in a way, to get the VIP for new people so it would be necessary to give it another type of benefit (Ex: VIP skin + 20 plus Hp + Special server tags).

    Finally I want to add that Unorth's argument: "A lot of people are still in school or university meaning they will naturally be focusing on December or early January exams", is affecting me personally and I want to apologize for not playing recently: I
    • Jefe

    Morell Administrator

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    Eso ya existe, si vas al menú de !zclass tienes una clase de VIP que no tiene daño por caída, solo el modelo.

    Trabugista Novato

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    Sisi, lo se pero me refiero que si os estais planteando aplicar la medida de eliminar el daño por caida que tengais en cuenta que hay gente (poca) que no quiere esas ventajas para tener una experiencia de juego mas dificil y que poner esta medida no fuera obligatoria para todos los jugadores si no opcional

    Enviolinador Miembro Activo

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    First, some context. These are busy weeks for most people, be it from school assignments, work deadlines or family meetings and social arrangements. That probably takes a toll on server population.

    Furthermore, it has been a busy month for CS:GO. Valve has started introducing changes which might result in custom player models being forbidden, and that so far has deemed custom arms unusable. I'm fairly certain this has had a negative effect on the player base as well, since the main indicator for your team has vanished from one day to the next. I'm surprised none of you have suggested trying to find a suitable yet not intrusive replacement. We can't expect new players to stick around if they can't get the rules of the game, and it's hard to learn the rules of the game when you don't have a clue of which team you're on by glancing at the screen. Morell and I have been discussing this since arms got nuked, but we haven't yet found a suitable course of action.

    In terms of changes, I believe the most direct need is to improve performance. We have been snooping around and it seems that, as absurd as it has always seemed to us, most other servers do enjoy better performance under Windows machines. Although it had already been tested, Morell has been planning to give it a shot again. Of course, this takes time.

    Now onto every suggestion. I find it a bit baffling that a good chunk of those are related to supporter perks only, since it tells me that:
    1. The title of the thread is needlessly alarmist (do supporter perks affect gameplay or enjoyability of the server in any sizeable way?)
    2. Supporters might not be relating as much as they should to the rest of the player base.
    One of the problems when creating something you put up for others to enjoy, is that eventually you run out of options for new stuff to add. Valve probably ran out of options for CS:GO long ago, which is why they --needlessly-- added the new gloves. Mapeadores has routinely created options that nobody else offered, and it's probably the reason why it has been an engaging server for so long without barely any updates. I don't think we have fully exhausted the 'option space'. We just need to avoid dumb options.

    However, not everything can come from server configuration and plugins, other factors such as maps and new players also factor into the equation. Since players nowadays seem to be afraid of being told they suck (everybody does), nobody is taking mapping up as a hobby, producing simple maps just to try to improve and outdo themselves. Mentioning ports or the few mappers that make excessively big maps (tip: those maps are only engaging to people that have been playing the mod for long) is most likely mentioning symptoms rather than a cure. I have already had this conversation before, by the way; people on CS:S asked servers for change that could only come from mapping. To that, only opening Hammer can be considered a fix.

    Let's consider some of the suggestions, however. I don't think anyone would be against reducing HP regeneration on supporters. In fact, going by the 'challenge' metric, I think it would be among the best decisions to take. One of the few disagreements I have had overtime with Morell have been certain perks that might have obscured testing/playing maps. The way supporter works is an example of that, to me. In fact, I would suggest removing any class-based regeneration on humans just for mappers' shake. We won't probably agree on that extreme, though, so the meeting in the middle will do.

    Events are something we all enjoy. We probably won't enjoy events if they are every fixed amount of time, however: I think my latest map can give you some general idea as to why. Events depend on the community wanting to beat a map. If there is no such interest because there are no new maps, why would you devalue future events by holding one now that might be a drag? More often than not, events would devolve into mindless repetition of maps that have been played to death, and draw nobody in -- 'cause been there, done that.

    Before delving into the next suggestion, I have to remind you of something: Mapeadores has been designed so that admins are needed as little as possible. The best way to avoid problems is to build them out of the system. That's why the tags were designed so they were presets. In doing so, we avoid possible problems with clans (that might use the tags), words that might annoy others, poor readability, etc. Making tags customisable is trivial, policing them is not. Would you rather have potential problems for something so small? This is something that could be answered through a poll.

    Finally, I despise fall damage being disabled. As a mapper, to see what you want to do crippled by server settings makes you want to stop mapping. If it were up to me, fall damage would be enabled for all players, with mappers that want their maps to use no fall dmg as a mechanic enabling it. However, you can't take something that's been there for so long. Once people get accustomed to 'easy', they think 'normal' --that is, what it used to be-- is 'impossible'. A middle ground solution in this case, still looking through the less of 'challenge' would be scaling fall damage without fully removing it. That way, VIPs (and supporters) wouldn't have an absolute, binary advantage over new players but would have certain benefits nevertheless. This solution would also satisfy me as a mapper, and mappers might be more of a solution, maybe, than general changes.
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    Trabugista Novato

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    Desde que empecé a jugar ZE (1~2 años) lo que más he respetado ha sido el trabajo de los mappers y el gran esfuerzo que hacen al crear contenido para nosotros y es por eso que he adaptado mi estilo de juego de manera que me adaptara a como el mappers quiere que juegue su mapa (sin ventajas extras) y siempre he tenido una opinión crítica (no tóxica) hacia los jugadores que lo hacen con ventajas.

    Yo creo que ahora que hemos visto el punto de vista de la comunidad (queriendo eliminar el daño por caída[la mayoría]) y el punto de vista de los mappers (jugando tal y como ellos determinen) creo que las políticas del servidor deberían determinar una posición frente a que es lo que más valoramos de estos dos puntos.

    Personalmente creo que no debemos satisfacer únicamente a la comunidad porque está tiene una simbiosis con los creadores de mapas y la aproximación que hace Envi es bastante acertada. Yo creo que no solo debemos centrarnos solo en políticas orientadas a la comunidad de jugadores si no también conocer las escasas (pero muy importantes) opiniones que tienen los mappers frente a estas.


    Centrándonos en el tema de los eventos creo que estos si se convertirán en convencionales deberían ser orientados más a la diversión que no al tryharding así como hace Blizzard con las tabernas de Hearthstone o las trifulcas del Overwatch. Y cuando la comunidad quiera eventos de tryharding debido a que el tema es muy hablado dentro del servidor que se comunique con Morell mediante los admins (el ejemplo perfecto de este fue con Aesthetic, cuando faltaron pocos días en el servidor solo se hablaba de eso y Astor solicito a Morell el evento y en menos de un día lo teníamos)
    El problema que veo a esto es que generaría una carga de trabajo excesiva para una o varias personas por lo que estás deberían estar comprometidas desde un inicio para llevar a cabo esta medida en los eventos for fun.

    Se que este post no aporta información adicional pero quería compartir las sensaciones que me ha transmitido el conocer las opiniones.
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    Astornauta Miembro Activo

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    La verdad es que si se quitase el daño por caido de los NO VIPs, el VIP carecería de sentido. La gracia de conseguir el VIP es para ganar esas ventajas minimas que todo el mundo desea. Si se quitase el daño por caida de los NO VIPs, ¿vas a jugar 50 horas para conseguir un tag y una skin ya conocida y antigua? Al tener que jugar 50 horas la gente tiene un objetivo en común, es un poco el que algo quiere, algo le cuesta. Yo prefiero jugar 50 horas para conseguir el vip, antes que no tener daño por caida. A todo el mundo le ha costado en sus primeros dias.

    PD: Todos los post con criticas positivas, son bien recibidos.

    Altek Miembro

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    DISCLAIMER:I feel a little bit ill at the moment so if there is anything that isn't clear on what i mean feel free to message me on steam.
    Let's start this now that that's out of the way...
    I tried to separate the things I wanted to mention (not particularly because the server is empty/ing but what could be done to improve)

    Minor things/niche: (these could be features of the server which I completely understand, just something that I feel is unnecessary at times, especially the 1st)
    Show Spoiler
    -RTV doesn't immediately change the map, instead it initializes the map vote and gives ~30 sec of map time(which could amount to 20 mins in some maps like frostdrake.
    Show Spoiler

    -Only 2 extends vs the 'normal' 3 (this was "bypassed" by the increase in time limit of some larger maps, but I dislike how some maps punish for 1/2 round losses right at the end.



    May affect server but probably doesn't:
    Show Spoiler
    -I agree with supporters having less hp-regen, but having it's something that for me personally it doesn't affect, I am more times saved by having 140 hp than regening that hp(meaning most of the times regen actually has no effect when I play), but if we developed a special event with fall damage I could see it being very strong.
    Show Spoiler

    -I'm not in favor of having "constant" event dates (aka I agree with Envi on this matter) and because beating a map outside an event gives me more pleasure as a player than during an event (of course some maps call for an event , for example a full clear of santassination).


    Major things:
    Show Spoiler
    -What could be best for the server is an upgrade on performance, but I understand that can't be done just by the click of a button, it would require investment both mental and money wise from the owner, and we also don't know the biggest details about how the server is run.(I do congratulate all that went into make the server smoother, not intending this as a downgrading suggestion but either as a expression of what would in my opinion have a bigger impact on how the server plays, and give their players a better ZE experience.



    TL/DR
    Most important would be server performance, even though upgrading it could be limited.
    Events could backfire, and they don't always give players the most pleasure out of wins.
    Supporter regen could use a nerf but isn't entirely game breaking.
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    WalkerGr Miembro

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    Great job mapeadores community, you managed to make mapeadores a train wreck waiting to happen as everything goes downhill.
    from where to start?
    The fact that casual players who enjoyed tryhard maps suddenly went against tryhard maps and motivated ppl to always nominate and vote casual and "fun maps" thus making the new players seeing tryhard maps as bad and boring maps instead of motivating them. Take a look at the server at the moment and see for yourself.
    Do you think changing any supporter benefits or making events will solve mapeadore's situation or do you think that fixing lag will solve this.
    Yes I blame the community instead of the server.
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    wan186 Miembro

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    ... That's why i talk about making events fun too (antigrav, changing playstyle and not only making easy maps to be tryhard ones, by nerfing zombies too).
    Please don't take our considerations word by word. I don't care that events be each 2 weeks. But i think we still need some events, and not just one each two monthes.

    McBeetles Miembro Activo

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    Yo después de un trimestre violador voy a tener ahora dos semanas con "tiempo". Me acabo de formatear el ordenador y la verdad es que va mejor que antes, no va a 60FPS ni de coña, pero al menos puedo medio jugar.
    Cuando jugaba antes empezaba a notarme molesto dentro del servidor debido a que tengo lag (ahora se le suma un ratón medio pocho que tengo que cambiar y un internet de mierda) y el hecho de no ver una mierda con tanta gente me frustraba. Hace tiempo que no entro al foro, por eso no sé si habéis hecho algo sobre esto, ¿pero no se podría activar un poco de transparencia a las skins de los usuarios? Yo es que en serio, no veo un carajo.
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    Enviolinador Miembro Activo

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    Morell and I have been thinking about ways to improve the main issues outlined here. Good ideas usually solve an intersection of issues, rather than just one very specific thing, so they feel more natural. Being aware of the changes will be good for Mapeadores as a whole, and perhaps spark discussion and creativity elsewhere. These are the few ideas that have been developed (but are not yet fully set up on the server):
    • Scale based fall damage: Instead of completely removing fall damage upon getting VIP, a middle ground solution would involve simply dealing less damage the higher the VIP level. This has been implemented on Mapeadores' branch of the zombie plugin, so the discussion now should be 'How much should we scale fall damage on each VIP level, if at all?'. The fun part of this idea is that it can be used for Prey too, and could produce interesting gameplay mechanics. For A/B testing damage scales, simple 'fun' events in large maps could be run, so we test different values and try to find what we agree is best. This will also help us find a challenging set of damage scales that will keep gameplay fresher.
    • Nominavoting: One underlying problem throughout the thread has been the 'Tryhard vs. Relaxed' distinction of maps. Players have grown tired from tryhard maps, in part because they tend to be played a lot in certain time spans. The way the nomination system works plays a role in this: people that want tryhard maps have more maps they might want to play than there active nominations. As a result, certain votes include only tryhard maps, giving no sense of alternative to those that dislike these maps. To solve this, Morell has reimplemented the nominations module so that certain maps require a few nominations to go through. This means that a tryhard map will be equally nominate-able, but interested players will need to a) agree on the map to nominate and b) leave space for non tryhard-maps to appear in the vote. The result should be more appealing to both groups. Since this will also ensure that tryhard maps are far more selectively chosen, the number of extends MAY be changed to 3. Ask Morell about that. I'd agree with it.
    • Playermodels & Leading: One of the most common complaints has been about playermodels. I already went over why focusing on models is not a good idea because of download time, Valve's possible upcoming restrictions and the likes, while noting that this seemed a very 'Supporter-centric' issue. However, a good balance can be found by giving Leaders (using Mapeadores' Leader plugin, in which players vote for a leader to tell them what to do) a custom, unique playermodel. This should encourage leading in general, potentially making new players interested in playing well while also providing pleasing aesthetic changes.
    Besides this, HP regeneration on supporters will probably be lowered. Also, Morell has been looking at the alternatives for trying to improve performance, but that is not something he can jump on directly because costs are involved.

    We should discuss both the damage scales for fall damage and the votes needed for nominating certain maps from this point onwards. Bear in mind that those changes are experimental so we might be missing something and you can help us spot it. I don't think these sorts of changes have been made elsewhere, so this falls into uncharted territories. Feedback is appreciated.
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    Altek Miembro

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    I am doing some work atm so I'll try to focus on the most important stuff.
    -The new leading feature and the skins was a great idea and I even used it as a "beacon" so admins didn't need to beacon someone to follow, increasing the way that mapeadores does not rely on admins.
    -Scaling fall damage could be interesting but we'd need to test it as you said.
    -The nominations is something I personally don't know how I fell about. There was something similar on PSE where people needed to expend 1000 points to nominate and login to do so (play 60 mins in 1 session), which led to only randoms maps being voted (no nominations).
    Furthermore I could explain after I get done.
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    Unorth Miembro Activo

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    Hi Envi,
    I believe the Scale based fall damage suggestion is a great opportunity to change how people play the game as opposed to a flat removal after 50 hours. I think this is something that will need to be fine tuned through testing.

    Nominavoting as a suggestion does give more opportunity and is more fair towards both sets of people who want to play try hard maps or play casual maps so I would be in favor of giving a shout at least. I do think however what Altek says above is something that needs to be watched to avoid some of the pitfalls that have happened on other servers. I think the suggested 3 map extends would be a beneficial change to the server to allow one or two additional attempts on a map should people wish to continue playing on the map.

    With regards to Playermodels & Leading generally speaking as someone who is voted as the leader regularly, I don't get to experience the leader skin outside of people gawking at me for being Santa Claus and blocking my vision on 90% of maps. The leader skin is a nice incentive for people to aspire to be in a leading position and does uniquely help identify a leader. I do think additional alternatives such as the !mark command to be a toggle on/off feature as opposed for limited to marking for a set amount of time would be just as beneficial for leaders being "noticeable". The "!mark" command is less intrusive and annoying compared to "!beacon" command and generates less lag overall when trying to lead during excessive defense points which dip the servers performance.

    All of the suggestions are very positive and I think with a bit of adjustments and fine tuning it could help to improve the player experience on the server.

    - Unorth

    Enviolinador Miembro Activo

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    I forgot to mention this, but a nearby-player hider was tested a few weeks ago. It was a bit too expensive on the performance side of things, so it had to be taken out. Once the upgrade/change tests are done, it could be brought back so you are able to see what you have a clearer window of vision at all times. This is similar to what other servers seem to do, but our solution simulated the clipping of 'close enough' players to avoid any major 'popping' effect (which feels odd and is pretty ugly).

    The nominavotes system should not produce those problems because it just requires certain maps be nominated 'more than once' (that is, a map might require 5% of the server to nominate it for it to appear). With the server full, a 5% will mean that 3 players have to nominate it, which is hardly a problem.

    Altek Miembro

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    Not trying to move anything from your idea envi but I was thinking how to avoid a stalemate of no nominated maps and came with the following idea.
    -So there are 5 spots for nominated maps, so we could arrange it like so:
    -Instead of a "3 nominations for the map to appear" we could have a % nomination, so the most nominated map would be on top, 2nd most after that so on and so on, which means if only 3 people nominate 3 different maps we still get them in the vote list and if 20 people nominate map x and 15 nominate map y we would get 4-map x 5-map y, etc.
    -People wouldn't know how many people nominated a map, so if a group wanted a map they would have to nominate it at least 31 times for it to be #1.
    -This also counters the tryhard/casual problem since anyone can vote any map to be nominated, but you need to beat the nominations for the map in 5th place to get in the vote list.

    This may be a bit confusing at first but I could explain any doubt in particular.
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    Unorth Miembro Activo

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    Hi,
    There is a couple of operational suggestions that I would have to tackle some of the daily problems people question which I believe can be easily addressed.

    Email Server: Almost a daily occurrence is people questioning why they have not received there registration emails when registering on the site. For the last few months asking people to register using a Gmail address or using the Steam API login feature has been the go to response. What is the actual issue with this? If its a dodgy domain resolver in the SMTP server this can be resolved rather quickly.

    VIP Thread: People are dedicating between 50-1000 hours achieving the different ranks of VIP on the server. Often times they spend a day or two waiting to release the registration email hasn't work before contacting in game admins to then spend between 1 - 10 days waiting on the VIP Thread list being updated manually. Currently we only have one person updating this list. Is this a process that can be automated? If not, can the plugin be altered in some way to grant VIP automatically to users who have achieved the various ranks of VIP? I know Morell that you are busy and I do not wish to point the finger that you should be updating the list manually more often. That is not the point I wish to highlight. I just think its unfair to expect people who you've roped into the server, is a potential regular who could be a positive net gain to the community but to push them away due to the wait times associated with obtaining vip. I know it makes sense to do people in bulk, but is that optimal for the retention of individual players?

    Change Log: This used to be done. I haven't seen one in ages. Previously a forum post notifying the players of changes to the server. Be it addition of maps, removal of maps, editing of maps. Certain maps have had significant changes made to the map which have negatively impacted its playability on the server outside of the intended mappers design be it directly or indirectly. There has been zero notification or justification to the community as to why these changes have occurred. A poll or a question before its made might be a good idea to gauge the communities reaction?

    In addition over the last few months we have had a number of plugins added with a number of commands added over time. the "Leader" functionality via !ld which has not just !hold but !mark commands is an example of changes that are not documented. You have to be online at the time the plugin is added for anyone to even realize the plugin has been added. The !blame command was added recently. I don't think anyone even knows how to enable it or use it apart from the 5 min it was enabled.

    People hear about changes made by the off chance that someone talked to the person who made the change and they catch an "oh btw, this map or plugin is changed/added". A direct channel to publicly announce changes or functionality that has been introduced would also attract and encourage people to make more than 5 forum posts to request a different tier of VIP. As it stands there is very little ZE community interaction via the forums.

    Examples:
    Artic Escape: Box added which removed a defense point from the map. Majority of people played the map and raced to get to said defense point. Map is no longer played due to lack of engagement.

    Atix Helicopter: The Ladder raised, currently no opportunity for zombies to infect humans. Map empties the server and encourages afking.

    Mako Reactor: Bahumuts health increased, Sephiroths Health increased (accidentally) , Teleport on pipe removed allowing for zombies to jump down on players from above once the core trigger is activated. I can understand increasing the difficulty of the map in terms of health, making faster lasers on Sephiroth, Adding Gravity boss ability to the boss. The Trigger which is killing all the casual/new players however I think does more damage towards the play-ability of the map. Yes people do flock to Mapeadores when Mako comes on but everyone who is not a try hard Mako reactor fan leaves the server as they do not understand how to get down the ladder section quickly.

    Random: This was removed from the server recently without any notification. Why?

    I don't think anything above raised here is anything too ground breaking but would make a massive difference to the community.

    Regards,
    Unorth
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    • Jefe

    Morell Administrator

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    http://mapeadores.com/temas/cambios-en-el-servidor-12-01-2017.18004/ WIP
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    Astornauta Miembro Activo

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    Se podria quitar el sonido de cambio a automatico de la Glock y la Famas, hay mucho spam y llega a ser horrible.
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    WalkerGr Miembro

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    A new skin for leader since santa skin is removed when someone becomes a leader
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    wan186 Miembro

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    Ohhh yeah...

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