[Server Suggestion] EntWatch Plugin

Servers CS:GO | Zombie Escape
61

I thank you Envi for starting what I already had intentions of doing which is trying to go from what the server wants to what and why can be done.

Witch Hunting

As you said witch hunting is and will always be a problem, but , entwatch won’t make it worse or better in a significant matter. I understand your intentions as you have said in previous posts was to create a server that has little to no admin interference/interaction but as you know this can only be done to a certain extent. Witch hunting and harassing someone for misusing an item was always done by both regulars and new players alike and we will never reach the lollipop land where this does not happen. That said I think witch hunting is indeed in the cons but isn’t directly tied to entwatch itself, but to the maps themselves. If I take a more extreme point and talk about when someone doesn’t defend into account we would remove every map because that could cause harassment since the player isn’t helping to the completion of the map.
Final point is that no matter what it will always happen with or without the plugin, so don’t consider witch hunting a cons of the plugin but a cons of the gamemode itself, making it have no impact on the decision to implement the plugin on the server.

Ban/Transfer

Both these could just be disabled, but it would give more options for the admins to punish with, not detrimenting the play-ability of the mod.

You said previously (and I apologize for talking directly to you but you asked for arguments defending our reasons so here you have them) that if a player shot the zombies into humans you wouldn’t make him unable to shoot, and that is correct, since shooting is the CORE of this mod. That said if we ban a player from using an item, that is only a secondary factor of specific maps, since every map is winnable without the use of any item, we would still allow that player from enjoying the mod since the main focus of the mod is Shooting zombies to survive and reach the end.
Another concern that I do agree with is that having a less punishing way to punish may make admins use it more often, but this could obviously be monitored with sourcebans, like bans are and players can report these instances or we could make this command only usable for tier 2 and above admins.

I will try to display the cons you said for transfer:

  • Item was used incorrectly.

This would neither justify a ban nor a transfer, and we can look at our bans for items and they were never for misusing an item but for trolling with them.

  • Item used to harm teammates.

This occasion could call for a transfer at first since it would be a trolling matter and afterwards the player would be ebanned if a multiple times offender.

  • DC’ed or died with the item.

This would again call for neither since it wasn’t caused by ill intentions but by just unlucky factors.

  • Threw the item away.

Alike point 2 this could call for a transfer or even none at all if we so decide to keep that standard, since we can obviously have guidelines to guide admins with their decisions.
This said neither of them are a cons nor the potential ill doing of admins since they can be monitored and reported by players, making this an extra of the plugin.
Gun Cleaner
This is hands down a definite pro, since it improves a major flaw on our server that is items disappearing 5 seconds after hitting the ground due to item cleaner. I don’t think I need much more argument than this.
Making something better
I would very much enjoy a better alternative that would make us better than other servers, but unfortunately there isn’t at the moment. If even after this you still intend on going for something better which would be marvelous I’d suggest adding this plugin while we don’t have that magical plugin, since we don’t have something better, but instead have something worse which is the absence of a secondary plugin (since items are secondary to the mod’s gameplay).
Chaos
As is the current state of the server is chaos itself. I logged in some days ago and the first thing I heard was “Calm down the admin is here wait for him to leave” which for any server or administration should be the last thing they want to happen. This is just an example to defend what some person said that we had more trolls and ill intents than one might think. That said this plugin would help monitor them as said many times before, making the monitoring purpose of the plugin better than current and a pro in the list.
Ui that helps leader, new players and veteran alike
Ui that displays the time left and owner of the item ,as well as , how many uses it has. This will greatly help leaders with the knowledge they are currently missing, help veterans help newcomers by making it easier for them to interact and tell them what a certain item does and giving them tips on key points to use it and help new players feel better gameplay wise by knowing they have a item that could be key in the victory of their team.
Furthermore this adds up to the pile of pros, making it 3 pros vs o/1 con (I still don’t consider Witch hunting to be plugin specific but I’ll let it slide to prove that the pros do in fact out weight the cons.).
To sum up I am of the opinion that none of the cons you have mentioned are plugin specific but instead mod specific. I also agree with you that the plugin isn’t as majestic as people make it to be but it has key aspects like not allowing an item to disappear and cool downs which we desperately need to improve the enjoy-ability of maps with items. Most cons and pros can be monitored and I am also of the opinion we could test it out and see how the Relaxed players as you put it react to it, nullifying another point you made which was that most people vouching for the implementation of this plugins are regulars.
Kind regards

3 Likes
62

I want to say that I play on the server because I like how it’s managed and balanced, so I have trust into its management decisions and would accept any decision made on the subject with respect. I also don’t feel like testing is exactly necessary, because most people who spoke here must have had some experience with the plugin (on other servers).

That being said, I support the idea of adding the plugin to the server (but with etransfer and eban disabled, especially etransfer).

From my point of view, EntWatch is mainly a useful tool that helps players to have organized gameplay by providing everybody with information about items status. It feels to me that there is nothing more fun and satisfying in a team game than being able to go through a battle as a team in a coordinated way with a deserved victory at the end. The most important means for coordination that we have is (voice) communication, but EntWatch can also play a noticeable part in it.

As regards its influence on balance (humans vs. zombies), I think that maps with items are balanced around having those items when designed. Some maps have zombie items as well, that can also be tracked by EntWatch (for example, they are tracked in ze_christmas_infection_p, as far as I remember).The end result can be that humans will have more victories with EntWatch than without it, because humans have items more often, and have more possibilities to use information about them to their advantage (since they are the ones who can use the items). But the most important thing here is how this is achieved: by making possible better organized gameplay, which is very different from simply giving a side some buffs. If it feels that it’s necessary (or will become necessary) to shift balance in favor of zombies, I think that it should rather be achieved by means that don’t hinder teamwork.

As regards its influence on the atmosphere among players on the server, I think that it should actually have a positive effect. While items are picked up and used by individuals, they have effect on all players, so it’s natural that they draw everybody’s attention. I think that having a pressure of the public opinion on players who pick up items is actually a good thing. A person normally cares about the impression that he makes on others and the opinion that is being formed about him over a period of time. So the pressure of the public opinion should mobilize and encourage a player with an item to try to use it in the interests of the team, carefully, responsibly and generally try to do his best (as opposed to toying with it on his own, carelessly and anonymously). The pressure of public opinion here serves as a soft force that guards team interests. No matter whether it is present or not, incidents with items misuse are going to happen, but with it there is a potential that they will happen rarer. Such incidents always hurt the atmosphere on the server, and reducing their number is a good thing. I don’t think that the variety of gameplay that such human errors bring with them are worth spoiling the mood of players.

I don’t see that anonymity really protects players who misused an item from possible harassment coming from some other misbehaving players, because they can be easily targeted by the item name, for example “the sword is a xxx xxx”. Generally players who harass others will find one or another occasion for it (and if they don’t they’ll just invent it), so this is their conduct that needs to be dealt with, rather than trying to remove all possible causes for expressing their attitude from the game.

I don’t think that the pressure of public opinion is a deterrent for experienced players to taking items, because they are likely to use them in a reasonable way and rather gain more recognition and trust from it. It should feel like a deterrent to new players, but I wouldn’t worry about them loosing interest in the game mode because of it, since they’ve got so many other things to explore and learn while they are new. And when they have done it, “all of a sudden” they are not those noobs that can’t be trusted with an item already, because they have some knowledge of the game mod, maps and items usage.

One interesting thing about the pressure of public opinion is that it naturally scales with the difficulty of the encounter and the importance of an item. This is something that admins don’t have in their arsenal, being able to react with strong measures only to very obvious abuse. So it can naturally guide new players to try to pick up items for their first time in less challenging and arguable situations.

As far as the argument of suppressing the initiative for trying to use items in a new way is concerned, I don’t think that it’s an issue as long as it can be understood that the player is trying to act in the interests of the team while doing it (and it would be generally a good idea to try to explain and discuss your intentions in this case with the team if possible). And if it’s not in the interests of the team, would you still argue that such a behavior should be encouraged?

P.S. On a side note, I would prefer to see:
– the possibility of picking up items (swapping it with your weapons) by pressing the “Use” key disabled, because many players become greedy and spam the “Use” key while trying to pick up an item, which leads to its misuse immediately after it is picked up. Players who don’t want to abuse this technique in many situations don’t have a real chance to pick up some items. I would prefer if the only working way of picking up items would be running into them (and dropping your weapon if necessary);
– the ability to pick up items from the ground after they are dropped by other players (their death included) implemented. While it will shift the balance in favor of humans (or rather won’t cause a handicap for humans in case of death of the original item holder in some situations, because maps are balanced with the possibility of items usage in mind when designed), I think that the benefit of more players being able to play with items more often (and have fun from it) outweighs it.-
but this is a different topic.

1 Like
63

Hmm okay. If Wan see that post maybe can he translate :), in the other case … rip.

Bon, faudrait arrêté d’être stupide et borné, de quoi avez-vous peur ? On demande pas la Lune, seulement un simple plugin qui a pour objectif principal d’améliorer le confort des joueurs, qu’avez-vous à perdre ?
Il n’y a rien à argumenté voyons !

Maintenant venons en au fond du problème, vous n’avez que faire de notre avis, j’entends bien.
Vous avez réussi à construire un serveur en outrepassent l’avis des joueurs, un serveur complètement laggy pendant plus de deux ans, le pire, c’est que ça a marché et c’est bien la le fond du problème. Vous pensez que par ce fait tout vous est donné et que vous pouvez bien faire ce que bon vous chante, après tout, on a joué sur ce serveur complètement cassé, mieux encore, on l’a aimé !
Le problème étant que d’autre serveur on vue le jour, ont évolué et se sont améliorés, on a malheureusement pris gout à la qualité de jeu. Ça fait maintenant un an que je joue sur ce serveur, la seule chose qui a changé, c’est le lag, franchement c’est bien, mais c’est peu, bien trop peu pour prétendre être à l’écoute des joueurs.
Il serait temps de se remettre en question, rejeter systématiquement les nouvelles maps pour d’obscure raison (franchement pidaras, bien qu’étant une map bien merdique est 100% jouable) montre bien a quel point vous n’en avez rien à faire. Alors oui, le serveur est full, mais à quel prix.

64

Envi, si las cosas siguen asi al final con los jugadores que nos vamos a quedar es con esas personas casuales que tanto defiendes. Por causa del lag la mayoria de los jugadores que mas querian el servidor se largaron, yo personalmente soy uno de los pocos que sigue jugando de antes y te lo digo bien claro, la comunidad hoy dia es apenas existente, cada vez mas trolls, cada vez mas spammers, cada vez mas gente insultandose, vamos, toda esta gente casual que tu defiendes sobre las personas que os estamos pidiendo cambios en este post.

Mapas como piradas, sky atlhetic, minas, que llevamos meses quejandonos y que son rechazado antes de ser testeados en el nuevo server, que supuestamente dan muchos problemas, pero casualidad en el resto de server los juegan y no hay problema.

Admins que por cierto ya apenas juegan (ya sabes, los regulares marchandose porque no hay cambios en el servidor). y te lo puedo decir porque a mi se me hizo admin desde hace una semana y aveces hay tanto spam y tanto insulto en el servidor que ni doy a basto.

Sinmas mira, yo soy practicamente nuevo y obviamente no voy a dar lecciones a nadie y menos a ti, que leyendote se nota la amplia experiencia que tienes, al igual que los jugadores que te estan dando razones tangibles. Pero como jugador constante de mapeadores lo puedo afirmar bien claro. El servidor necesita un management mas activo y no lo esta teniendo.

Por favor no tomeis esto como un ataque ni mucho menos, por que no lo es. Simplemente dando mi opinion como jugador que le encanta mapeadores. Puedes pedirme argumentos tecnicos sobre plugins que no se para que mi opinion sea mas valida y como dices no sean palabras que se caen, de hecho posiblemente si contestas a este post no pueda devolver respuesta a tus argumentos, asique toma esto solo como una opinion ajena a lo que igual vosotros estais viendo. Pero vamos si puedieses jugar un poco hoy dia, verias que sencillamente el servidor ya no es lo mismo, y nos entenderias a todos muchisimo mejor.

1 Like
65

+1, I don’t think adding entwatch will make witch hunting any worse than it already is, it helps players by showing the cooldown of the items on the scoreboard and helps admins identify trollers.

The pros outweighs the cons and I don’t see any harm in atleast testing it and see how it goes.

66

(I’m not a wall of text guy so my points are gonna be short)
In my opinion, EntWatch should be added, even if we do add it and the server goes into full witch hunting mode, we can easily remove it.
My arguments FOR & AGAINST:

For:
Better management if items altogether, allows leaders who aren’t admins to see who has specific items and / or how long is left of the item cooldown (if there is one)
If someone is repeatedly trolling (e.g constantly throwing Ultima off the bridge in Mako) we can take action against said person without having to outright ban them. Restricting gameplay is better than full on not allowing them to play. If said person continues to troll, we can take more severe action against them.
It gives admins more control over the map, if a person decides to intentionally throw away an item, admins can transfer the item to them (this could only be allowed if the item is completely un-retrievable (e.g it’s stuck in a rafter somewhere outside of the map)
The plugin is far superior to buttonwatch, buttonwatch only allows for button presses, and it relies on the actual button name, (in the SDK the button may be called &1837-minigun_button, which isn’t that bad, until you get maps from non-English speakers (or just maps with entity names that aren’t English (I’m looking at you, Pirates))) this can be solved with a custom entwatch config, which i believe you write yourself, I know Bukkake can do this and is willing to teach people how to write them yourself
The pros outweigh the cons all together, the plugin has been suggested time and time again

Cons:
Witch hunting (is that even still a thing? Do people actually care? We’ve won maps over and over again, I’m almost certain the majority of players (regulars) are mature enough not to witch hunt non-regular players). We should have the mentality of “Oh a new player took an item, let him learn it so he actually feels welcome in the server” If witch hunting becomes an issue (which I doubt) we can always restrict entwatch to admins only (or even just give access to regular players (e.g Platino+))
I can’t think of any more cons, but I highly believe we can eliminate the witch hunting factor.

All in all the pros outweigh the cons, and if we want to Make Mapeadores Great Again, we should start listening to the community.

P.S. Lied about the wall of text, sorry :slight_smile:

67

Again, I think some of you are misunderstanding my points. It is often hard to understand what is said in written text – and in pointing whether the issue is on the sending or receiving end. As I am the constant here, I will assume I’m not being clear enough and try to simplify things further.

Firstly, I’ll go through witch hunting again. Witch hunting is just a fact of the gamemode, as most of you – and I myself – identified already. The argument relating it with a plugin that lets players know who does what is not that the plugin will be its cause. It can’t be that way – because there would not be witch hunting without it! Most of us agree, however, that there is.

What is the point, then? If we take witch hunting as something that is bound to happen, but that we consider a negative, we should try to avoid it when possible. Note that I mean avoid because, on the whole, I am against banning anything that restricts what players can do ingame, provided they’re not trolling, hacking or causing other kinds of problems.

A system that lets players know who did what is bound to make it easier to witch hunt. Furthermore, it will be doable in a direct, personal way. FireStarter very nicely brought up that nowadays you can be insulted as being a 'bad '. I think this is a feature, not a bug: you are blamed for using an item poorly, as the item bearer. That is to say, as a player in the context of the game, not as THE player which might have done something wrong accidentally. I also agree with FireStarter in that, usually, the effect of the peers is what regulates players’ behaviour. I believe that is independent of whether a plugin was added or not, but I think those organic, cooperative views are very important.

Summing it up: witch hunting would become easier with a plugin telling users who did what – that is the concern. It is not that the plugin would cause witch hunting, but that in general, it is smarter to avoid things that might add to it.

With respect to the commands, I think most of you are seeing my point in that it would open up the gate for quick, biased action. Although he agreed, Altek argued that it could still be interesting to have if monitored through SourceBans. This integration is neither available nor trivial. Doing this is something to be take into account if you argue for EntWatch, as it would take time.

Regarding the weapon cleaner, it should not be eating items up. If it does, and you can replicate it, you should report that as a separate issue. I don’t think EntWatch does anything in this regard, but I feel like you are discussing a separate topic – which is fine, but would be a different discussion. The same applies to items being picked by using the +USE key or not.

Finally, I want to outline that some of you are presenting clashing views – I’m surprised you are arguing with me and not between you, since you don’t seem to agree on what’s happening. Some of you are saying that admins would be able to monitor usage of the plugin if added. I understand this as ‘admins are active enough’. Some of you are telling me that the community, as a whole, is a state of disarray. There is some arguing going on about regulars being the ones that troll, but also about regulars being gone. I understand this is a matter of perception: in looking at the same thing, we all see something different. What I want to know is what is the problem among all those conflicting views. Up to this point, I think it’s trolling, but I might be misunderstanding the whole ordeal.

On a point by point basis:

  • A plugin like this would make witch hunting easier – that is the argument you have to counter, not that it would cause it. Ideally, think of ways to limit how people can witch hunt. Morell and I have been talking, and showing item status to admins only and the item’s owner makes sense to us.
  • Those commands create situations in which admins might act on a binge, and slowly become more prone to gameplay-based punishment. A suggestion is to keep them but log usage through SourceBans, but this integration would take time and delay adding the system. Another alternative has been outlined by giving it only to roots, but that would also limit usage. Here, you could argue other alternatives, though the less effort they involve, the faster they may be implemented.
  • Trolling with items itself is the problem – the solution should try to address this.

As a reminder, this post outlines what the current solution could entail.

------------------------------

Now, onto two responses. My french is rusty and I may not even get the gist of what you are saying, so feel free to argue back if I get it wrong.

The point here is that, if there are pros and cons that everybody is seeing, there is already something to lose – and to gain as well. The discussion, at least since we proposed an initial solution in the third page, is about getting the most gains while avoiding cons. That seems quite an argument to me, but I may also be wrong – you should be able to tell me how.

The aim is not to have a server that is full. The aim is to have a server that is fun. Here, fun is not qualified. It’s not fun for regulars or casuals, fun for admins or fun for noobs. It has to be fun in the general sense, in a sense that expects nothing from anyone. That’s what a good game is – fun, irrespectively of who plays. Most of the people that contribute to Mapeadores have played zombie mods since a very long time. Some of us played before escape existed, and have seen 3 minute long maps (hi boatescape! I still like you, somewhat!) evolve, grow, get items, levels and bosses. Fun has been a common thread throughout the years, in different styles and ways.

When Morell and I started talking about CS:GO, the idea was to have a server in which all gameplay modes that ZE ever included could be fun. In which there was a hint of randomness, but player skill was rewarded. In which the community would be as self-managed as possible, but with admins to help carry it through. That is the reason why certain standards were set, why some things were left open, and why we are reticent to make certain changes. People usually think they can know what will work, but in the end the only way to know is to do it. As you yourself said, Mapeadores was worse on a technical level for a long time – due to using Linux, which greatly reduces server performance with CS:GO --. People still came and come, played and play. There, I think, is the proof that at least some of this mindset works.

In regards to the maps issue, since I think some of you think it’s an arbitrary limitation, I wrote this up today: http://mapeadores.com/temas/sugerencias-de-mapas-map-suggestions.17863/page-3. I doubt you can call that obscure reasons, but it’s fine to disagree.

Iba a responderte al post entero, pero creo que ya se me va de madres. Algunos de esos mapas los quitó Morell porque tiraban el server. Creo que muchas veces, un poco por no preguntar o por falta de comunicación, se asume que hay intereses ocultos. Todavía se está terminando la transición a la nueva máquina (si te fijas, el servidor de Prey sigue apagado, cosa que por ahora es secundaria) y no se han vuelto a probar para ver si funcionan. Aparte de eso, algunos mapas no se añaden por las razones que escribí en el post de arriba.

Como es lógico, nada de esto se perciben como ataques. Hablar las cosas es útil, sobre todo cuando no nos estamos entendiendo.

68

Just before I head off I would like to add some key points/ideas. (And sorry not sorry for the absence of a wall of text)

As you said Witch Hunting will be affected by the plugin itself and people having knowledge of who used which item and when, and to that I always agreed, but when I said that it shouldn’t impact the pros vs cons meter I mean it won’t matter to the extent you think it will (and I am aware as Morell said that you’ve had this problem back in CS:S) but this is one of the reason why I asked for a test.
Now about the gun cleaner, as bukk said previously and I talked to some people that fiddled with the plugin that told me it stopped gun cleaning plugins from cleaning items, but I only mentioned it as a added bonus for the plugin.

Now for suggestion/ideas:

  • My first suggestion and as someone said earlier would be to give access to this plugin to people over a certain threshold, giving another reason to play and get high vip, and the reason I support this idea the most out of the following is because we can give something to the players themselves, not only the admins.
  • Another thing we could do is give entwatch to admins only (like how we have buttonwatch currently), even though I am unsure how the tab ui would work. With the latter suggestion I would also want to see if it’s possible to display a ui giving time remaining for all players (not indicating who has the item but something like “Wall-10s”). I am unsure if CS:GO allows for a special ui to be added and how that would work with the different resolutions but if we deny the first one I would still like to give the comunity something to track items (could even be something like a chat output every multiple of 30 secs remaining).

Have a good night

69

You know im curious would it be possible to implement Entwatch so high vips can also have it like i dunno Diamante+ or maybe even Dios only,people already commented on how this would make sense but is it possible?

70

It seems like the main against arguments are:
Witch hunting
Possible abuse of the commands
Restricting gameplay

Here are some very simple solutions to said problems:
Witchunting: only allow admins / high VIP players to see the entwatch thingalings (who picked up an item etc.) Most admins / dios vips are mature enough not to make someone feel like a fool for picking up an item
Abuse of the commands: only allow roots to use the commands
Restricting gameplay: again, only allow roots to use the commands, or even just trusted players

71

And if someone trolls with an item, we can take regular action against them

72

Add it

73

@Envio

Como he dicho antes, la palabra del pueblo es importante en tanto y en cuanto discuta las cosas dando buenos argumentos. Decir que la gente quiere algo sin poder dar razones tangibles (como las que han dado Unorth, Rokon o DRS) no sirve de nada porque no ayuda a conocer los problemas que la gente piensa que hay y las soluciones que se pueden buscar. Podemos estar de acuerdo o no sobre esas razones, pero sin ellas no hay más que palabras cayendo en los oídos sordos de los demás.

I am sorry to see that you find some of what I had to contribute useless. I was merely expressing my opinions on what was being discussed. On a side note I don’t think I mentioned this is what the people wants. I understand that opinions differ. As I think I introduced my first post with.

Now before addressing my ideas for the solution of how to implement this I want to elaborate on a few of the previously discussed things.

Now dont take this as a personal attack, because it is not. I just want to attack the way I experience how you argue in some of your posts. I see you often write that we are all regulars and don’t know what the new players want, and then you safeguard your argument by saying that you don’t know what they want either. However the impression im getting is still that when you argue it seems as if you take their opinions as hostage, to use as an argument against adding it. I mean if it is unknown how new players would react to entwatch, and many regulars have stated it would be nice to have and you are merely interrested in a varied and interresting gameplay on the server. Wouldn’t it be a good idea to try it out as several others, and I think you as well have stated. Then after the try-out evaluate if changes to entwatch needs to be made and see if its only regulars enjoying it or not. If we don’t know what new players want or think alike, we cant use the argument against entwatch, that they will be scared of using items, because we don’t truly know if they would be. So we wouldn’t know if this removes the fun of gameplay. My postulate is that it will generally improve gameplay for regular and new players alike, but we wouldn’t know until we try it out.
A problem about this “regulars” argument is that anyone posting on the forums are often considered regulars, cause new people don’t start on the server by going active on forums first, and by time they do, they are considered a regular and their opinions is degraded by the fact.
As I see it regulars vary in opinions as you have stated in this thread, our opinions does not exactly match up. That’s because we are different and havent coordinated an agreement on this topic, as I felt you were indicating. I have asked people on the server and on my friendslist to come join in this discussion if they are interrested. I havent told them what to say but merely to state their opinion on the matter. When you cant get opinions on new players I think a varied group of peoples opinions somewhat represents the opinion of the server as a whole and is a good first hand guestimation. Grant it there is a slight bias towards tryhard gameplay elements being favored, but even amongst regulars there are many that doesn’t like tryhard elements. This talks for trying it out in its fullest or almost fullest feature and then adjusting accordingly to experience and how its recieved and to how you guys want this server also, cause I agree we shouldn’t neccesarily just copy what other servers do, but it’s a good starting point.

Another point is the argument, that the lines of when to punish becomes unclear when more choices. First of all its not many more choices this ads, so its not that complicated imo. Secondly as I believe Rokon mentioned, having multiple punishment solutions can in fact make it clearer when to punishment, cause in the grey zone offenses, you have a milder method of punishment.

With regards to having a server that is generally fun, I just briefly want to point out that fun is subjective in its nature, it cannot be objective, hence you cant make a server that is fun for all. Some new players are tryhards by heart and don’t like it casual, some new players are super casual and don’t like it tryhard. Same goes for regulars, its just cause humans differ. But these differences are sometimes mutually conflicting, hence you will always have someone that wont think a certain way of running a server is fun. Just wanted to point this out.

With respect to still having people on server even if having technical issues for a long time, I just want to mention that even a youtuber who doesn upload for a long time or has shit content will still get many views long after becoming worse, people come back and check in. This example is just to highlight the fact that having had a popular server yields long term benefits long after. Hence you need to take the information that server has still been populated, with a grain of salt, when using it as a proof. You would need to fuck up a server hard and for a longer period to lose many players. I think the idea with entwatch is to explore if we can get a plugin that makes server better without ruining it for casuals. There would be players on a server regardless, but as you said yourself, its not only about a full server, its also about bringing elements that can be fun or better the gameplay, without hurting it for others of course. Also I want to say even with previous linux server mapea wasn’t unplayable, ofc some thought that and stopped playing, but many and probably especially casual players don’t leave cause of a bit of lag now and then.

Before coming to my personal suggestion for a solution on how to implement entwatch I want to stress 4 important pros about entwatch that has been outshadowed by the witchhunt discussion.

  • Being able to see cooldown on tab can be very helpful for new players who want to learn how to use materias.
  • Being able to see cooldown on tab can avoid namecalling that also can evolve into witchhunting, because of the fact that people can see that the materia is not yet ready. That means instead of yelling use wall you fucking idiot, they can see that it has still some cooldown left and there will likely be less of these scenarios because of it.
  • As mentioned earlier being able to use cooldown helps coordination on the team.
  • Being able to see who has the materia, for all, not just admins or some vips. Can be a tool to make it easier to help new players with materia

For these reasons I don’t think seeing materia on tab and cooldowns should be only for admins or upper vip levels. There are of course other pros, but those I think have gotten the attention they needed, like for example making it easier for admins to catch offenders.

Possible Solution:

  • Try it out either fully fledged implementation or with e-transfer and/or e-ban disabled.
  • Don’t remove tab showing of items and cooldowns for everyone but admins in the initial implementation, since I believe that it is one of the big benefits of this plugin. Try it out for everyone in the beginning, you can always later adjust.
  • Check out what works, does it ruin gameplay for many players or not, evaluate and adjust.
  • Write out guidelines for the admins and have a meeting where guidelines are expressed.
  • Tell admins to disencourage witchhunting and encourage new players who want, to try items and help if they need. Admins on a server often also functions as guardians, that guide the community to a desired culture, this includes having a culture without hatred and witchhunting.

If entwatch sucks, its not a permanent thing, few things are. It can be removed again. I think this is my last post on this topic, as I have exhausted my viewpoints on the matter and many good points have already been brought to light on both sides of the argument. I hope you will come to a conclusion that can encompass some of the ideas that has been brought forward and address some of the stated possible caveats to implementing this. Thanks for reading this and have a nice day all. :slight_smile:

P.S.
With all this said I want to thank you envio for taking your time to respond to us and trying to work around this issue and finding a solution. That is really nice. We might disagree on some things but its nice that you are trying to find a way where we can try this out and see if it could work.

//DRS

74

I said the exact opposite.

I am a bit busy at the moment, but the general consensus seem to be converging towards a middle ground, attempting to solve the few flaws we already discussed. Morell and I have been checking code since the thread began, so we might be able to get some proof of concept running soon.

75

My bad, I had to use google translate and could easily have misunderstood. But thats cool. I agree that the topic is getting exhausted and a somewhat consensus is forming. Im looking forward to see what the result will be :slight_smile:

76

I support adding Entwatch to the server after trying it on other servers and seeing how well it was working.

77

Some pros that you forgot:
-allows to know which items are still not picked, avoiding item chasers to do a detour for nothing.
-allows to know which items we have, to adapt strategy.
-helps item newbies to know the reload time. A lot of them just don’t use items, fearing that they will not be reloaded for crucial parts.

I didn’t see more witch hunting on servers using the plugin…

78

this should be a thing already, esto tiene q aser algo bien no somos ninjo’s or kids whatever it is, we are al growup to dont make discussion between materia’s and the best thing we can do is help eachother everytime we see who it has.

79

About that. On one Japanese server I saw something similar to gametext. This is when information is displayed directly on the screen. So, there was built-in gametext right in the entwatch, in consequence of which all the necessary information was right on your screen. I really hope that there will be this opportunity in EntWatch. And then constantly check TAB a little annoying

80

Is it possible to get an update on the situation at hand?
I understand if people are busy and don’t have time to reply.
Thanks in advanced