Also entwatch can stop the weapon cleaner, we lost many rounds in maps such as santa or predator where we can pick up items at boss when we die. Entwatch can also provide easier proof for non admins by taking a demo as people can see who used items in chat such as people walling on mako and pirates.
I support the idea!.
it can help us alot.
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It is a good plugin or not ? Isnât the question, actually people (Mapeadores community) are asking for it ⊠you canât ignore communityâs opinion, and its on this way that you should work : make people happy to play on your server.
I believe the pros outweigh the cons on this matter.
I support the idea of testing the plugin in the server for a few weeks and monitor the effects.
We are usually pretty bad at detecting bias, and that âweâ also includes myself. I donât know, however, if any of you are actually trying to see the different degrees of what we are discussing. Words sent back and forth but ignored is not talking, and not helpful. I will try to distill each viewpoint further, and then try to give broad solutions.
First, the point about punishment is that if you have varying degrees of punishment, youâre going to be biased towards thinking one is justified more often. My argument is not that being able to block players from using items or to transfer items is as bad as kicking or banning â Iâm saying that having that power opens a grey area in which it is not clear when to actually punish. With kicks and bans, punishing is more definite, absolute and clear. Morell mentions this, because he already knows how EntWatch changed up the dynamics. These are things you discover by seeing them done, and long-term experience plays a role.
Notice that the argument is not about mistrusting admins either. In fact, quite the opposite: because you trust admins you can expect them to make mistakes. Admins are human and biased, just like I am, and you too, reading this. The problem is that you open more room for mistakes when you have a system in which when to punish is not clear and each punishment seems less harsh.
Some of you have argued that this would not happen, but I think people will keep making mistakes. And mistakes, sadly, snowball slowly into something that is not nice. This is the dynamics change I described: eventually, the whole mood gets affected because those minor issues add up and grow larger and larger. The first mistakes are seen as such, people complain. Then, they get progressively normalised. In the end, you change a fundamental fraction of what can be done, and you donât remember how you got there.
For the matter, and as I already wrote, I understand the opposing view. To be able to fine-grainedly control what users may do with items makes sense. Specific punishments are a reasonable solution, for the same reason that voice chat is muted when you spam. In my view, however, the problem comes from restricting a gameplay element, central to the game in certain maps. It is also about not having entry barriers for accessing gameplay other than skill â which is something you canât objectively measure, but exists.
I think Iâm summing up what you all have said fairly. Now, in this sense, the problem would be with the commands â we take them out and it is fine and dandy. Taking them out should also reduce the configuration burden, since we would only need to link entities and names. Up to this point, if you agree with the arguments we have driven through, this will be a solution.
Now, the other issue â that some of you are either conspicuously ignoring or saying it wonât be a problem without arguing why â is witch hunting. I think none of you would have the gall to say that there is no witch hunting or that it isnât a common thing. We know it simply happens. You are playing a map you really enjoy, that guy uses an item wrong and you go on a tirade. Now, I am not wishing for the impossible, to make it disappear and to make everybody play in the magical sunshine lollipop planet. I only want to make sure that it does not get unplayable for those that prefer to play relaxedly.
Most of you acknowledge the problem, but how could you sort it out? Since we have agreed that we trust admins, item-owners information should be just for them. After all, you have all very clearly pointed out that there are usually enough admins to avoid even the problems with the EntWatch commands. In this way, only people we expect to act correctly would in the position to pinpoint trolls â the main issue throughout the discussion.
In doing this, we will be solving every issue you have brought forward. Of course, this implies a different system altogether, but since EntWatch is open we can work it out. As I said: do not tie yourselves to what other servers do, because we can do better. We will do better, in fact, when we clearly outline what we want.
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As a sidenote, remember that many people asking for something does not a good idea make. Argue on the basis of what is being said. It is fine if you donât pick up items because you want to a priori know what they do, but that is as fine as picking them up and using them to see what they do. There is no defined way to use items, to learn to use items, to decide when to use items. When you shoehorn gameplay into fixed categories, it dries up and dies.
Likewise, donât say that âthe serverâ asks for something when you are only getting regulars to vouch for it. People that play casually, perhaps more disengaged, are equally as important. I am not saying whether they will be for or against these ideas. I am saying you donât know their opinion, and that it matters. Every one of you that became a regular started like them. Donât have the narrow view of the people in your same wavelength. You and I, both, want more players so they can enjoy the fun: consider them.
Having read what people posted here iâd like myself to expand a bit as to why this plugin would be hepful to the server.
To begin iâd like to say that maps that have items(human and zombie) at least for me add to the challenge since you add strategy to the mix.Human items allow humans to be more versatile by giving the the option to hold zombies off to places other than choke points(those being boxes or any other prop that could serve as defence),while zombie items add another danger element to the mix,thus keeping the humans on their toes all the time since a mistake could cost them a lot.
That being said not every map needs items but i feel like items will always make it more exciting.
Moving on we all come across some people who for one reason or another pick up items and drop them,either to troll or to just exchange them with another item,or people who use items to kill fellow humans,most of the times itâs difficult to see who has what,especially when the server is packed thus creating confusion and making everyone tense since people start throwing blame around,with the plugin this could be averted,i feel like by knowing who has what it will reduce the trolling to a minimum since people will now know who to throw the blame on and that person will surely recieve some sort of punishment,that being a warning or if the trolling continues even harsher punishments.
As you see i didnât mention missusing items above,i think no one was born knowing all the ze maps, or got instantly a pro.We are humans,we all make mistakes,some people see the plugin as a way to shun people away i see it as an option for people to learn,for example someone picks up an item,he knows we can see that he has it but he doesnât know excatly how or when to use it,since there is no point in hiding that person can ask for help and in turn become a better player,im positive the community can handle this,there are a lot of mature people ready to help,mistakes happen all the time,but through them we learn.
I donât want to drag on so iâll close this by summing up that this plugin in my opinion will reduce trolling and also help players get better,the community is friendly and helpful and im sure everyone wants to see it growing even more.So please give this a chance even for a trial period of your choosing and if it doesnât work out you can revert back,but im positive it will.
yo estoy de acuerdo con lo de EntWatch
-Adding another way of punishment will actually ensure you have better options to punish with. In case of item trolling for example, itâs still better to item ban than ban. It will make the gray area smaller, as you can punish more specific, rather than having to punish to hard or to soft.
If you really donât want an e-ban, admins can be banned from e-banning, and will have to ban or kick in case of item trolling.
-Admins are biased with or without this plugin, they have more powerful tools they can misjudge with. If they can be trusted with bans, they can be trusted with e-bans, which is still softer
-The snowballing already happens, the people who are acting like ânaziâsâ when it comes to items, always make sure to find out who has the item. EntWatch will only make it easier for the people who are busy playing, like admins, to see who has an item. The people who abuse item users are already there. This is not EntWatchâs fault. Even if it leads to a few occasions this happens, admins can maintain control. This is what admins are for. There are many other reasons causing abusive chat, we canât just ban it all can we? And only trying it out will show what effect it will have.
-I agree with you, most of the cons can be dealt with removing the command. But I do suggest, in extreme cases, when multiple reports with proof happens, this can still be used by the server management and not admins. Itâs just a suggestion, some people canât just stop being dicks with items, and this way they can play normally.
-Like you say about witch hunting, it happens without EntWatch. I have many hours on a shor time, and it happens less often than you think. Most regulars do help people. It mainly happens when one person, totally clueless takes it, ruins a whole round (wich can be upto 57 other humans) and refuses to listen or improve.
Iâm all for people learning items if they actually put effort on it. But I do not value one persons âfunâ over a whole server.
And guess which people usually leave quickest, refuse to play maps? Thatâs right, non-regulars. And I have a bit proof for it: A quick way to RTV santa, is by activating extreme mode so you keep losing. This makes it easier to convince the non-regulars to RTV.
They also hate maps they die on, like mako.
Losing rounds because of totally clueless people or item trolls, actually makes people hate the game. Youâre essentially putting one persons fun above a whole serverâs fun.
- I can agree that only admins see who has items, I actually have suggested this to people, but not on this forum, shouldâve done it here too it seems.
-There is no defined ways to use items, but some ways to use items are obviously wrong (using a wall where it blocks nothing, using a damage ability where there is nothing to damage, etcâŠ).
-Iâve said enough about non-regulars in previous points, which answers this question.
En mi opiniĂłn cuando mucha gente esta a favor de âXâ cosa, es cuando mas hay que prestarles atenciĂłn. Estamos pidiendo el entwatch, para que nos faciliteis las cosas a la hora de jugar y a la hora de poder administrar, puedo sonar egoista, pero no es tan fĂĄcil pillar a alguien que sabe trollear cuando hay administradores delante.
Antes la jugabilidad era mas amena, pero los ultimos meses se ha vuelto peor y peor, y no se esta haciendo nada para solucionarlo.
Como ha comentado antes DRS hay gente que sabe en que momento puede trollear para no ser pillado, y claro al no saber cuando alguien porta un objeto, muchas veces se va de rositas. Yo intento vigilar siempre, quien lleva cada cosa en todo momento, pero llega un momento que es demasiado.
Yo solo espero que la palabra del pueblo (jugadores) sea importante ya que somos muchos los que estamos a favor.
Before going into the details, then, Iâm going to note that we are agreeing: the resulting system should be admins-only and commands should be locked out or removed. I think itâs important to see in which way we agree so we can move the different points forward.
I am not sure you got the gist of what I said regarding grey areas. I meant that with respect to when punishment is appropriate, that is, with kick and ban you need to have a good reason to go for it. With item-related commands, the grey area arises because you canât guess the intent of the player â unless the trolling is obvious and stupid. My point here is that if you have a tool that you feel is harsh, such as kicking and banning, you are more prone to thinking twice about doing it. It keeps biases in check, even though we all still get it all wrong at times, because we are human.
In this sense, I am more than happy to concede that witch hunting happens less than I believe. It is also a matter of perception, so perhaps I am too eager to see it. Nothing makes me happier than people thinking others are open to help new players improve. We should strive for more of that. However, that there is not much witch hunting does not go against the argument that a tool like this would make it easier to witch hunt. That is my whole concern.
Furthermore, I am not sure I agree with how you identify the causes of people leaving in certain maps. Yes, when you are failing people that are not regulars might leave more often â does failing not relate to how much people become abrasive on the server, though? I have seen instances where rounds and rounds are lost in simple maps but people donât leave. This is also why I have been telling people for months that not all maps need to be big â big maps are not always attractive to newcomers. Notice, though, that in this case neither of us know why the non-regulars are leaving: we just think of things that make sense, but it may be something else we are not seeing. This is mostly what I talk about when I say we need to take them into account, and Iâm glad you did, because it is something we need to appropriately discuss this.
Finally, yes, of course certain ways of using items are not good, just like certain ways of shooting zombies are not good. Using items to troll would be akin to shooting zombies into team mates, but I assumed that was clear already.
How can you talk about server mood , youâr not playing on the server !
Letâs be honest, casual people (those who can be blamed for misusing an item) canât pick these items, for the simple reason that the âregular playersâ pick them before.
Those who pick items know where to find them, know how to get them and how to be the first to get them. If they misusing them, that mean they are trolling (or most of the time people just fail and itâs not a problem, because there is no problem to fail)
Youâr right ! That only mean people waiting for changes, a thing that you guys do not look understand, sadly.
Como he dicho antes, la palabra del pueblo es importante en tanto y en cuanto discuta las cosas dando buenos argumentos. Decir que la gente quiere algo sin poder dar razones tangibles (como las que han dado Unorth, Rokon o DRS) no sirve de nada porque no ayuda a conocer los problemas que la gente piensa que hay y las soluciones que se pueden buscar. Podemos estar de acuerdo o no sobre esas razones, pero sin ellas no hay mĂĄs que palabras cayendo en los oĂdos sordos de los demĂĄs. AdemĂĄs, como ya he dicho, el pueblo incluye tambiĂ©n a la gente que no juega regularmente, porque sin ellos el servidor tampoco serĂa lo que es. Si no se tiene en cuenta a la gente que, por definiciĂłn, no habla, no se estĂĄ intentando solucionar un problema. Por suerte, creo, no es este el caso, porque al menos algunas personas sĂ estĂĄn entrando en estos detalles. AdemĂĄs, como he dicho en mi anterior mensaje, hay bastantes puntos en comĂșn, con lo que deberĂamos llegar a algĂșn entendimiento sin problemas.
If I am not playing on the server, you should have an easier time to argue against my points clearly, I think. I also think that regulars asking for something to stop them from trolling is a self-defeating argument, if coupled with the points most of you have raised about the community being positive and nice. I donât want to imagine intent behind words, but it wouldnât be hard to guess dishonesty. After all, a community thatâs nice and positive, when it has trolls, would have figured out by now who they are. I think Iâll better let you sort that out, and bring better arguments to the table.
Finally, yes. We donât understand people waiting for changes â from server performance, to specific plugins that may be in development, to a KZ server the community asked for, to other config. changes you guys ask for but then donât notice when they are implemented⊠â which is why they rarely happen.
Im assuming you are talking about seeing items while pressing tab(correct me if im wrong).How is that going to help the server if only admins can see items,what if there are no admins in,it will be the same as is now.
For me, that is good enough, although I rather have the full use of the mod.
I will support the full mod is the community doesnât want this idea.
I cannot speak for everyone though.
Iâm talking about giving admins what they donât have now. Currently they can see who uses what item, but they canât see if a player picks or drops an item, which would be things EntWatch or an alternative to it would provide. This is, in particular, what would be solved:
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Since the general theme of the conversation has been about trolling, I think this would be sufficient. Having it visible to all had the issues we discussed about witch hunting. Although, I guess, if admins no longer thing theyâre gonna be around to monitor the server as they argued before, it could be paired with access for players beyond a given threshold. In this sense, perhaps Oro vips could also check these logging options, to be able to trace trolls. As I have repeatedly said, we donât need to do what other servers do, we can do better in ways that also integrate with how the community works.
Hmm actually, one time during wanderers, someone dropped an item in a pit, âdestroying the itemâ. Syoudous was in spec, so I alerted him. But he wasnât watching, so there was no proof, and I asked if a plugin would show it, but buttonwatch doesnât show drops.
So it really isnât sufficient.
EDIT: I think I wrongly interpreted your text, were you talking about ButtonWatch or EntWatch being used as monitoring?
ButtonWatch, as is, doesnât log who picks or drops what, leading to the issue you describe. An improved version would log that information so that an admin can appropriately punish trolls. For ease, we might integrate some code from EntWatch or roll our own. It depends on what is actually needed, in detail, while trying to avoid the cons we all have been outlining throughout the thread.
I still think that having the cooldowns next to the items in the scoreboard is something that can help everyone improve old and new players alike,cause by knowing the exact cd you can use an item effectively.
Although that could be interesting, I feel most of this thread has been about trolling. If we build something good enough to fix the trolling problem â which must be big, since you all have mostly argued the same thing â we can look into extending it.
Ok then,makes sense.