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[Server Suggestion] EntWatch Plugin

Tema en 'CS:GO | Zombie Escape' iniciado por Unorth, 17 Mar 2017.

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    Unorth Miembro Activo

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    Hi,
    We have seen in recent weeks the introduction of a new operating system which has dramatically improved the performance of the server. I think now that this has been introduced it is the perfect opportunity to take on board additional feedback and consider how we move Mapeadores forward in a positive manner.

    EntWatch is a plugin that has been around since CSS days. It is used in a plethora of servers and I have seen many arguments both for and against the use of EntWatch by people who are both for and against the introduction of this plugin on the Mapeadores server.

    In this post I wish to lay out both the pros and cons of EntWatch in order to consider what the general communities point of view is on this matter.If you are strongly for or against the use of EntWatch please let the community know.

    [Features Introduced]:
    Below is a list of features brought to the table by EntWatch.

    Commands:
    - sm_hud > Used to toggle the side display.
    - sm_status > Used to see your restriction status.

    Admin Commands:
    - sm_eban > Used to restrict people from picking up special items.
    - sm_eunban > Used to unrestrict people from picking up special items.
    - sm_etransfer > Used to transfer special items from one to another

    UI Enhancements:
    - Outputs in Chat when item is picked up
    - Outputs in Chat when item is dropped
    - Outputs in Chat when item is dropped
    - Outputs in Tab who has a specific item
    - Outputs in Tab whether an item is ready
    - Outputs in Tab the time left until an item is ready again

    Please find attached random screenshot obtained of EntWatch in action.
    [IMG]

    [For vs Against]:
    Right, so above I have highlighted the core features that EntWatch brings to the table. Time to get down to the contentious part. For consistency sake I will highlight some of the arguments that have been brought up against EntWatch and then look to bring forward why we should consider using it.

    [Against]:
    • Witch Hunting: Having a readily visible text message + cooldown timer in tab allows for people to very easily look at who has used an item. In the cases where an item is incorrectly used it is very easy for the person who used it to be identified by not just the admins but by everyone on the server. Having this available can make cases of player directed abuse easier.
    [For]:
    • Identify trolling: UI enhancements allow for quicker identification of people trolling on the server.
    • Tools to counter trolling: eban and etranfer provides admins with the ability to introduce counter measures against people who have gone out of there way to intentionally wipe a team through the use of items. Discretion by the admins can be restrict people from picking up specific items in the future. For example, picking up Wall on Pirates to block people in and get them killed by zombies.
    • Map Management: Provides swifter coordination on difficult maps allowing for less time being spent figuring out who has items.
    For me, the argument against EntWatch and witch hunting is a non issue. We have sufficient admin coverage at peak hours to moderate and prevent the server from getting out of hand. If people are going to witch hunt they would already be doing it with or without EntWatch.

    The benefits of having additional tools & the UI Enhancements to the server itself make for a better experience for all players involved.

    I would love to hear any feedback from people in the community on this matter so that this can brought forward to the server management in the correct way. Please do not hesitate to respond either for or against EntWatch as your input will help move the server forward.

    - Unorth
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    Unorth Miembro Activo

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    Just to extend onto my response we already have admins active on the server who actively maintain EntWatch configurations for other servers in the Zombie Escape community such as Bukkake who is willing to teach anyone who wishes to learn how to setup an EntWatch configuration for a map.
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    baster Miembro

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    Great idea Unorth! i really support this! now that we have the new sv i think its time to make some changes to move forward.
    Including entwatch would be really good apport to the server.
    And of course later start including some new maps too would be great fot the mapeadores comunnity.

    Rokon Miembro

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    Support from me.

    The benefits outweigh the disadvantage for me.

    In case you are reluctant of this idea, we can always try it out and monitor it.
    The community can give feedback in this time.

    I really would like to see at least an attempt, you never know how well it will do on Mapeadores!

    zer0 Novato

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    Get EntWatch, its good, and we can see if people are trolling
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    Thamadman Novato

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    I approve of this plugin,for everyone that is reluctant or plain against it at least we should have a trial period of 1 month or so and see where that takes the server.
    Please consider this.

    Enviolinador Miembro

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    Just for completeness, the main arguments against EntWatch stem from:
    1. The potential for admins to only allow items to be used by 'good' players, i.e. an arbitrary measure that in most* cases ends up driving people away from the mod.
    2. A shift of the mod being focused on 'playing' towards 'winning as a human', which ends up degrading gameplay until being a zombie is a chore (if you feel it already is, suggest changes FOR zombies so THEIR gameplay improves, not otherwise) and you drive people away from the mod.
    3. An even higher entry barrier for new players to discover what items do (which is harder to figure out in single player in CS:GO as particles won't fly on their own -- even then it is silly to expect players to go through extra efforts in single player to LEARN to play a multiplayer game mode), eventually drying up the inflow of new players and, as a result, driving people away from the mod.
    Notice that I wrote 'driving people away from the mod' in all cases. This is because, on the whole (and it might not be apparent on CS:GO right now), systems that restrict gameplay by arbitrary measures tend to scare people away. I also remind you that we have !buttonwatch to deal with players using any entity in maps for trolling -- it only reports who does what, so it effectively serves to monitor but not to cause havoc. If !buttonwatch is missing logging features (e.g. I agree it might be useful to detect item dropping with it), those are likely to better do what we want than EntWatch.

    I, as always, prefer solutions that don't involve taking gameplay from anyone. For a while, when filtering items was the new hot shtick in CS:S, I filtered the items in Paper. Then I realised than at times, the filters limited what I needed or wanted to do (help another player trigger their ammo box because they were shooting among others, using heal in the small room when the guy was jumping in). I had to decide between allowing trolling but also having more flexible gameplay or making it all stiff as a board. I have, on and off, fiddled with either case and always preferred the former. Then, when servers started using EntWatch, they forced filters on certain items I wanted to be unfiltered and changed what I had originally pictured and designed. I don't think that's the way to go, specially considering that the amount of mappers in CS:GO is minuscule when compared to CS:S and not many people are stepping up to the task (*wink, wink*).

    * As seen in most ZE servers in CS:S -- I might have the causality wrong, but CS:S was more enjoyable to me when there were less restrictions and that's why I moved on. I know this isn't a unique case, and remember that as soon as maps got more complicated (an issue I've already talked about) and server admins tried to restrict gameplay further for dubious reasons of 'gameplay quality' (e.g. noobs shud not teik dem itemz cuz they ruin rounds), things got stale faster and faster.

    zer0 Novato

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    I think we need to get EntWatch, beacuse then we can see if people are trolling with items/materia

    Rokon Miembro

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    If they are trolling with items, item restriction is more appealing than a ban isn't it? You will end up taking a player's game-play either way somehow, if you want to punish them.

    The rules won't change will they? It's a system to detect wrongdoers easier. Admins always have the power to abuse, I don't think this will change the behavior of admins, and make them favor "good players".

    With some exceptions maybe, most people are quite tolerant to new people with items. But there is a difference between someone failed over and over, without even bothering to learn the basics. And someone who actually first learns the basics then takes it.

    Also, most items can be used during an easier level, which can be used to learn the items. I don't think one persons "fun" should come over a whole team, if he is not willing to learn to use the item responsible.

    But in the end, it doesn't even matter. There are rules about this and these will still be followed, I assume.

    Let's try it out and find out. Maybe you are right, but we can only tell in-game.

    As I see it now, the biggest problem would be the people themselves, and not the mod. But the people misbehaving should be punished, not the people who want a certain plug-in.
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    Unorth Miembro Activo

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    ButtonWatch shows us when someone uses an item. It does not show us when an item is picked up, dropped, person with item has died. This limits the admins and still makes moderating item usage to one specific case. Meaning we can still not identify trolls.
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    rcn6077 Novato

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    Support from me great idea! like it.

    Jakka Novato

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    Minecraft:
    Jack_
    Hello,
    I personally and many others think EntWatch is an extremely useful plugin to have on the server, but as highlighted by both Unorth and Enviolinador, there are several pro's and con's that need to be considered when implemented.
    With sufficient admins on the server nearly all around the clock on a day to day basis monitoring the server alongside the plugin, I think some problems could be eliminated such as the WitchHunting one Unorth has pointed out.

    Considering the point that Envi raised regarding admins potentially limiting the people who can grab items, EG: A noob picking it not knowing what they're doing, I think that would come down to actual Admins and not a decider of the plugin itself, and can be looked at from multiple angles.

    But on the other hand it DOES allow admins to stop Trolls from acquiring the items and thus using them to potentially ruin the entire round, EG: On mako with the Earth Materia. This has become a somewhat noticeable thing in the server recently and this could potentially provide an answer.

    From what I've heard and seen, this generally looks like this is the way forward. Although it has it's limitations, I think the pro's outweigh the cons. And of course IF implemented and it doesn't work, we can always change it back. There is also no harm in testing this plugin for a day or two to see if things workout before fully committing.

    Either way, I don't wish to start an argument I'm just putting my opinion out for people to see.
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    Astornauta Miembro Activo

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    Sorry but i have to post this in Spanish.

    Primero de todo quiero decir que estoy a favor de que se añada el entwatch. El entwatch facilita mucho las cosas, a la hora de jugar. En todo momento se puede saber quien porta un obejto sin necesidad de haberlo usado por primera vez, a si se evita que lo tire y desaparezca como muchas veces ha pasado y va a seguir pasando. Aparte tiene los contadores / tiempo de cooldown para saber cuando un objeto esta listo para utilizarse, cosa que tambien facilita a la hora de coordinarse. Luego esta el tema de los ebans que sirven para castigar a alguien que da mal uso a los objetos a proposito, que actualmente varios jugadores no merecen portar un objeto mas. Cuando alguien trollea, en el entwatch se veria claramente quien ha sido el ultimo y la gente se daria cuenta de quien le ha trolleado. Tambien se pueden transferir objetos, aunque a eso yo no le veo tanto uso, excepto en el caso de que alguien tire un objeto o se desconecte a proposito.

    Segundo, el buttonwatch a mi me parece una herramienta util pero la veo mas floja que el entwatch. Solo se puede ver quien usa un objeto (que eso esta genial), pero nunca podremos saber quien la lleva en todo momento, ni si la ha tirado a proposito, ni si se la ha pasado a un compañero, etc. Y lo unico que podemos hacer es castigar al que la ha trolleado, ya sea con un kick o con un ban. Como he dicho antes con el entwatch esta la posibilidad de banear y restringuir a alguien para que no pueda coger objetos.

    Ejemplo:
    Alguien usa un objeto para bloquear a 10 humanos, se le puede restringuir de no poder coger objetos durante "X" tiempo. Pero si lo hace repetidas veces, se le puede acabar bloqueando permanente para que no pueda coger objetos a parte de banearle cada vez mas tiempo.

    Ademas de todo, siempre esta la posibilidad de "el periodo de prueba" para ver si funciona y ver si la gente esta satisfecha con el o no.

    KyuHyunie~ Novato

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    Great idea! We can still make some tests on the server and see if the plugin works out or not.

    Enviolinador Miembro

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    The point is that 'good' players is not something you can define in general -- is a good player one that repeats the same strategies ad nauseam in item-centric maps (I'm looking at you, Mako) or rather one that uses items in uncertain situations, even if it causes havoc at times? That is, in fact, the main problem with item trolling: guessing intent is not easy.

    Now, I am not being dumb here. If a guy drops Ultima down the bridge every round for 3 rounds, he needs a whooping. However, I don't think of items as a separate gameplay category with regards to other gameplay elements -- do you punish players that shoot zombies to the front? You do when they're doing it obviously on purpose and to annoy others. Do you punish them by not letting them shoot? I reckon that might be fun, but I think uniform punishments are a better way of dealing with most trolling-related issues. So to your point, rules wouldn't change because rules are already set to punish trolling, and any sort of trolling would be punished by the typical escalation (warn -> kick -> ban [short] -> ban [medium] -> ban [a year]).

    Restricting gameplay was not obviously meant in terms of rules: the rules already restrict gameplay of those who troll. As with everything, trolling is not a black and white issue, so people can be disingenuous in playing with the shades of grey. After all, if 'we really wanted to play this map, we have been nominating it all evening' and 'all levels are important because we really want to win', the threshold for something to be considered trolling and an item be transferred from player A to player B will become lower, even more so if player B is considered 'good' by some standard. And in the case, since 'we really wanted to play this map', people (who might hold the same arbitrary standard) might agree with the decision. That doesn't make it right, though, because you are guessing intent even further and the decision gets more arbitrary. Often, the 'fun' of the many is not fun in the long run.

    Just as a empa-thought: consider how likely it would have been for you to stick around playing, in an environment in which, on the whole, you are punished for exploring the boundaries of what you can do and what each things do. It is hard to see this through the lens of someone who hasn't played yet because it is usually hard to be aware of what you didn't know before you knew, and in which ways you acquired that knowledge.

    I am a bit surprised that instead of trying to address issues with the logging system for admins (we have had button watch open on and off for players, taking it out when we felt it might negatively affect witch hunting), you all jumped towards a different plugin. It is not wrong to roll your own (borrowing ideas and code when possible) if what others offer has downsides. I think we can do better.

    Altek Miembro

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    Sorry for the later response but due to IRL issues I can only address this matter now.

    Disclaimer: If at any time I sound angry towards a person I apologize since every contributor to this post and the advancement of Mapeadores deserves to be thanked for their work and effort.

    While both Unorth and Enviolinador are correct, I will try to give my opinion on the matter to it's fullest extent.

    Witch Hunting

    • There is and will always be witch hunting on this mod, be it 'Who is doorhugging?','Who pressed the wrong button?', in this case 'Who has that item?', but entwatch just shows us the "Witch" in which case we don't need the "Hunting". Various times people have wandered the map looking for a person to blame on the "failure"(Will explain the quotes later), in which case they are putting their team in a disadvantage since it's 1 less human being useful or 1 less zombie attacking.
    • I think I can talk in name of the more elder players when I say that whenever we try to find the "witch" our intent is to help that person improve (if it's a new face) or ask that player how he is thinking of utilizing that item (so we ourselves can play accordingly), and entwatch would make this so very much easier.
    • If an admin wanted to do this he could've already done this (By slaying the person that has the item) and entwatch display a message when an admin transfers an item so if a player thinks that the admin is abusing of that power he can report him so the case can be analysed.
    • We, as admins, would only use the etransfer or eban on repeated offenders that we can ensure are trolling or trying to make the flow of the game worse, this obviously excluding people that are inexperienced or new to the mod/item in which case we would help them improve and learn, proven that they also wish the same.
    • We could remove the eban feature and just proceed punishing as we would do normally, but that features doesn't affect the mod in a major way as not being able to shoot (you yourself as a CS:S player can vouch for this since you've played and had fun playing maps without any item or materia, just plane zombie defending).
    • Etransfer could also be used to recover the lost item (I think this could be understood better with an example). Let's say player A has an item that affects the game greatly, let's take ultima on EX2 of mako as an example, and once player A gets that item he immediately drops it into the reactor, he could've missclicked so let's say he is not trolling in this example, without etransfer we would've just lost the round since we can't kill bahamut without using ultima, but if we transfer that item to someone we didn't need to waste another 5 minutes and instead have those 5 minutes for another try or to get to the following map.(I haven't seen much use of entwatch as of late so I can't recall if there is a direct function for this but also can't imagine it isn't possible to be added).
    To finish entwatch I think it would make very little impact, in a negative way, of the enjoyment of both new and experienced players alike. The cons of the mod were and will always be an issue on this mod with or without the plugin itself, it is only up to the players themselves to be mature enough to be able to handle these issues.
    Now onto another issue...
    As of late the map pool is becoming sort of stale, granted quality is top priority and without trying to affect that standard I am just going to give some ides/thoughts on the matter.
    • We could test new maps, even if they don't theoretically match that quality standard, since it is only a test. We try the map out and see how the server receives it (both tryhards and casuals) and after that we make a decision to add the map. Does the map fit the standards? Did the community like it? But we should always try it out even if the standards aren't met, theoretically.
    • After each test (and to this I would like Syoudous' opinion, since he is the main map tester) we could add a forum post on which players give feedback on the map and where we could have a log that the map tester would say if the map was added or not and a text describing the reason for such decision. This could be created by the map tester himself or someone who was present on the test.
    Sorry for the long post and thank you for sticking with my until the end
    Thank you for your effort to improve this community
    Best regards

    Enviolinador Miembro

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    The point in 'witch hunting' is not that of 'witch finding' -- being able to pinpoint who did what doesn't stop the 'hunting', that is, people being mean spirited for (usually) petty reasons. We tend to judge ourselves in terms of our intentions and others on what they do, mostly because we usually know we had good intentions. In this sense, I don't think that if you objectively look at how people react on any ZE server whatsoever you're getting people that 'want to help others to improve'.

    It sounds very good, and in certain communities people might be nicer, but I don't think it matches the general reality. To qualify further, I think Mapeadores has a very nice community overall, and I think it comes from focusing on aspects others ignore. I am unsure how a plugin would change general mob mentality in any sense, and I doubt it would be for the better. Also, up to this point, I remind you that an improved buttonwatch/itemwatch would fully answer the 'who did what?' question.

    In regards to you being able to do something similar to what EntWatch does already, you ignore the nuance of what the admin can argue in each case. There is little an admin could say to justify killing a player to get him to drop an item for another player. Going for a case by case analysis, the player would have either:
    • Picked but not used the item, or used it in the wrong time, in which sense it would be clear abuse to kill him. Taking his item, however, could be justified if you are accustomed to playing a map in a certain way (e.g. being a good player) and you think the map should be played in the same repetitive fashion. Here the devil is in the details, since slaying would be obvious abuse but an admin could try to argue about transferring the item being justified.
    • Picked an item and used it to harm team mates, in which the actions of the player would fall under trolling, and would follow the escalation I described in the previous post. Slaying here would be used as a punitive measure more than anything, so there is no mismatch.
    • Picked an item and died or dropped it, in which case you would have two situations in which the item can be retrieved. The item is laying somewhere and nothing forbids coming back for it -- except excessively linear level design, which is a thing and a flaw on its own, I think.
    • Picked an item and threw it, in which the trolling intent is not clear: I drop a medikit which we may need for an item I like more. Am I trolling? I don't think I am, and I don't think an admin should make the call to transfer the medikit to a second player either -- it can be picked up. If I were trolling, the escalation I described applies.
    The problem here, again, is not your intention as admins. I know most admins are going to do well in most situations, but EntWatch is the kind of fuzzy system that plays in with our biases -- of which we are not usually aware of. As I have described a few times, it's not that I think people will directly start giving materias to their friends, but rather that they will blur the line on what's appropriate because they feel that in that given moment it is the right decision, even though the right decision is inaction.

    In the same sense, when I mentioned 'shooting bans' it was to make it clear that with kicks or bans the punishment tends to come from a very clear reason. I know most of you -- admins -- will give plenty of room before punishing because you want to be sure that it is justified.

    Commands like !eban or !etransfer work in a different plane if you will, one in which you're more prone to be carried out by the spur of the moment. I think this comes from it being 'not as harsh' in our minds, as most of you have thoroughly shown throughout the thread with what you have said. I don't think that, in principle, any gameplay element should be taken from a player, and that punishments should be all-or-none because in that way we're less prone to act on hot blood.

    The way I see it, there balance of pros vs. cons on item banning tilts towards cons more than something else. Now, I can argue there is some value to !etransfer: it is reasonable to want to bring back items dropped in the case of trolling. I don't think it makes sense to use it elsewhere, or, at least, I wouldn't want it on my maps because it goes against what I perceive to be the value of an item: a valuable gameplay object that must have a cost if lost. Item loss, in my view, comes from death, disconnection, accidents or being a troll; only this last one justifies bringing items back. However, if we went by this definition, the cases in which the command could be used to do what's right vs. the times in which it is a blurry form of abuse probably favor the latter. The same problem with bias comes into play, and I'm not convinced the pros can sway the cons -- you can further explain your reasoning to go for it, though.

    Regarding maps, for which a different thread would probably more appropriate, I agree that there are few new maps. Morell and I have discussed giving the mapping contest another go, perhaps trying to involve communities that actually care and reaching out to social media sites. This is very early on, though, and I don't know how the scrilla is after the server change -- Morell should know what can be organised, with what prizes and in what scale. As always, I recommend anyone interested in mapping actually take up on it: you will have fun, and will provide others with even more fun. Just keep it cool with the indistinguishable long, linear maps.

    I feel like people misunderstand the purpose of the quality standards: they are not there to filter out maps other servers are playing but to filter out problems in the future. Maps that are ported wrong are the worst offenders, since for newly made maps we give some slack and Syoudous tends to try to help the mappers and give them valuable advice. Using these maps will cause problems like particles not working anymore, clients crashing, not being able to download them from fast download, etc. These standards are not theoretical: Syoudous checks every map himself, going through most details to ensure the server and players won't have to deal with half-baked content, or end up liking a (bad) version of a good map that has to be taken away because it breaks things down the road. In this sense, people liking a badly made map would be one of the worst possible outcomes: it could create a feedback loop of low quality content that accelerates the coming of the problems. I personally hope we never get to the point where particles go kaput out of shoddy work, it would be a shame.

    I think that creating a thread to comment on tested maps is a very good idea, and it should probably be done. Having clear, transcribed input is very valuable in making sure maps work as they should.
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    Unorth Miembro Activo

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    Hi Envi,
    The one thing that I feel people are focusing on is the eban/etranfer of items. Yes the ability to distinguish "punishment" for trolling is a partial factor in people wanting EntWatch. But "punishing" or restricting people is not the primary intention of the plugin. It is a tool that enhances the decision making process for an admin and alters the method in which an admin reacts towards toxicity in the community. Item restrictions like banning for trolling is not a method that I see being utilized on a daily basis. It is for explicit circumstances that deem it necessary.

    The main focus towards EntWatch over ButtonWatch has an always will be around the UI enhancements via the Chat/Scoreboard. This is a feature which is game changing not only for admins but for in game leaders & experienced zombie escapers alike.Knowing that ammo is off cooldown in 30 seconds as opposed to people asking "ammo? anyone got ammo?" until someone who may or may not have the item off cooldown responds is the primary reason people wish to utilize EntWatch.

    Mapeadores is a multi denominational community. We have a lot of players from across Europe who do not explicitly speak English. Having the information displayed readily is a game changer in terms of communication. English, French, Spanish, Russian alike can interpret whether an item is ready in 10 seconds via simply pressing tab.

    It is very easy to get caught up in the negativity surrounding EntWatch as a tool that can be self destructive on a community if improperly handled. However as you have pointed out Mapeadores, the community surrounding Mapeadores is quite a positive one. The decision lies with the servers management whose decision I would respect either way. I do however believe that the servers state is fluid. Commitment towards the plugins usage can and should be retracted at a point in which it impacts the server in a negative fashion. I would be of the mentality that we should try changes and test appropriately before shooting suggestions down. If a point is proven and the idea was an awful one, it can be retracted at any time.

    - Unorth
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    Altek Miembro

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    Was just about to post something about the main interest of actually having entwatch.
    Unorth said it and I couldn't have said it better myself. I touched that entwatch's ui and chat outputs were helpful to both admins and players alike but with trying to defend the plugins' pros over its cons I forgot the main intent of the ui.
    With this said I support neglecting eban and etransfer but still bringing the scoreboard ui and chat outputs from the plugin, selecting that code from the plugin.

    Olivera 2 Miembro

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    I think it's a good idea.
    Does not necessarily stop allowing other players who do not have the same ability as experienced players, it is simply a use that can be useful to us, in case there may be a player trolling. I prefer that a user with little experience or none is capable of failing with this item instead of which it is taken by any other user who could give him bad use knowing the consequences. It is my humble opinion. I think that the players with little experience have to pick up the items, the more better and with someone who tells you how and when to use it for the benefit of all. But we really need EntWatch.

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